Infill panels

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Permalink Reply by Wes Loder on August 11, 2009 at 2:59pm

Why are you opposed to "surrounding the house with another structure?" Do you want a half-timber effect? If you want efficiency, least construction work, high R value and the maximum interior space and view of a timber frame structure, SIPs are definitely the way to go. SIPs are what have made the modern timber framing resurgence happen. If you are building a timber frame, you don't need a stick frame between the posts and beams, so why do it?
As for using dry timber, working it may be a lot harder, and if it is oak, it will still twist some. WES LODER

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Permalink Reply by Ron Mulligan on August 11, 2009 at 3:06pm

Thanks for the reply Wes. I would not say I am opposed but do like the idea of enjoying my work from the outside as well as the inside. We are not in an area of oak timbers so do not have that option. As for being harder to create the joints when drier.....there's nothing like sharp tools. :)

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Permalink Reply by Wes Loder on August 12, 2009 at 9:53am

What is the preferred timber wood in your area? Woods other than oak normally demand thicker dimensions. This could give you more wiggle room in terms of allowing the showing off of interior timbering. What kind of exterior finish do you have in mind? Half-timber structures use an in-fill of either stucco or brick, rarely stone, but getting a good seal around the exposed timbers is almost impossible. In addition, the timbers are now exposed to weathering on the outside. The biggest challenge seems to be getting a fill to work around braces with their triangular shapes. If you do stud the walls between the timbers, what kind of insulation would you plan to use? Fiberglas yields a lot of air infiltration problems. Any time you stud, you create lower R-value gaps in the house envelope. Our walls are R-26 and with a tight seal, that appears to be adequate. R-20 is not a lot with studs and lower seal potential, unless you are in a moderate climate.
In our house, we sought to get as tight a structure as possible in order to gain an effective passive-solar house. SIPs and timber framing was the ideal combination. Our exterior is traditional cement stucco over wire mesh on the SIPs. Weather-proof, low-maintenance and attractive enough. If we wanted to dress it up, adding molding around the windows would be the easier solution. WES LODER

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Permalink Reply by Ron Mulligan on August 13, 2009 at 11:58am

Preferred wood in the area is Douglas Fir, usually consisting of 8X8 for post and beam construction. For the exterior finish I was thinking of Hardie Planking. There would be enough thickness to use 2X4 construction with a spray foam insulation giving a 0 gap seal. I have not done all the research on R values for this insulation but have heard that it is R20 for 2X4 walls. I also plan to use geothermal but that depends where we find our perfect land.......there is alot of rock where we are moving. Wes, I would love to see some pictures of your house. Sounds like you have put a lot of thought, sweat and tears into it...I can really appreciate that!
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Wes Loder on August 14, 2009 at 11:09am

Ron: I posted four pictures of our house in the photos section this week. You can see a lot more on my personal blog: http://wesloder.blogspot.com/ Enjoy, and would love to hear comments. WES

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Permalink Reply by Ron Mulligan on August 21, 2009 at 2:25pm

Thanks for the link Wes. We really enjoyed looking at your hard work! It must be hard to leave home!
Congrats on such a fine job.
Thanks
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Chris Wood on August 14, 2009 at 1:40pm

Hey Ron,

There was a company called Maine Post & Beam that built this way in the 70's and 80's---mostly in the colder drier winter climates and the effect of "vapor drive" and rot on studs and timbers became apparent during renovations/additions to their homes. The SIPS industry started taking off about the same time this "infill" method started getting exposed for it's liabilities.

The vapor drive issue isn't as bad in the southern climates or in buildings with minimal indoor moisture being generated. Using really well dried timber (14% at core) to keep shrinkage at a minimum and professionally designed HVAC systems to manage indoor humidity (around 40% to 45% year round) will help. But if you are in a climate where it is 70 degrees inside and 0 degrees outside, you cannot avoid air turning to vapor (water) at the slightest gap. If it can't breathe and dry out, rot will set in. The Maine P&B demise came from wrapping the exterior of the post and studs with plywood and siding and trapping this moisture between stud and structural timbers behind the plywood. There was no place for the vapor to escape.

The BEST way to build a home where it gets cold in the winter is an air-tight envelope around the frame and maybe half-timber accents on the exterior. We have many light commercial structures with HeartDried timber and the true infill approach and they look great. Here are some pics. Good luck in whatever approach you decide.

Chris Wood, Hearthstone

Attachments:

• DSCN0082.JPG, 1.6 MB
• DSC05623.JPG, 589 KB
• DSC05613.JPG, 602 KB

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Permalink Reply by Ron Mulligan on August 21, 2009 at 2:24pm

Hey Chris, I LOVE DSCN0082! This is exactly the look I want. Now to keep the gaps from appearing. I guess that is the money maker right? I have heard of a new foam seal on the market but have not been able to find any info on it. If dry timbers are being used I am wondering why acoustic seal could not be used between the stick frame and the timber frame? I have not yet looked into what size gap before it breaks seal but interested to know. I have Douglas Fir timbers that have been used in a bridge construction and are about 2 years old. After being used they were piled and strapped together. Unfortunately they were not covered but I plan on using the timbers from the middle to build the frame with. So many ideas.........
Thanks
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Jake Lappan on August 28, 2009 at 9:38am

timber frames are designed to support vertical or gravity loads not lateral loading from wind or seismic loading. you will have to think about designing some of the stud infill walls as a shear walls. you will not be able to get R-20 with 2x4 construction with just batt insulation. when you stuff 6" R-19 into the 5 1/2" deep cavity of a 2x6 stud wall the R values actually decreases to R-18. I know Owens Corning make a R-21 insulation designed for stud walls. Then there is the question of your 6 mil plastic that you should use in conjunction with stick framing. typically you would but the 6 mil to the warm side of stud at winter timer. if you are infilling in between timber it will be more difficult to make an energy conscious stud wall. wrapping the house with structural insulating panels (SIPs) would be the best way to go.

Jake Lappan
Design Project Coordinator
Riverbend Timber Framing

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Permalink Reply by Ron Mulligan on April 20, 2010 at 10:25pm

Thanks Jake, wow I guess I never got the notice I had a message. I understand about the R value with a 2X4 wall but from what I am reading about the new spray-in insulation R20 can be achieved. The same spray-in insulation also provides the needed vapour barrier. I still have not made up my mind which way I want to build but am going to start with a work shop that I want to experiment with.
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shenton on April 25, 2010 at 1:38pm

I think you will be sorry with anything but sips or wrap and strap.

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